The Man In The Middle

Ted Koppel: Did the president raise with you the question of sending Pakistani troops to Iraq?

General Musharraf: He did. He did talk of the Iraq dispute, and we did discuss Pakistan troops. In principle, we would agree,but we are looking at the modalities.

Ted Koppel: How many would you send if you send them and what purpose would they serve?

General Musharraf: Two brigades have been asked till now.

Ted Koppel: That would be approximately how many men?

General Musharraf: Maybe around 6- to 8,000, and up to a division maybe later. Pakistan can, yes, provide up to maybe 8- to10,000, maybe up to about a division strength.

Ted Koppel: When you talk about the modalities, for example, would that mean that the United States would undertake thecost of those troops being in Iraq? Would that be one of the modalities?

General Musharraf: Yes. One of the issues is certainly the financial package, because it wouldn't be fair to expect Pakistanitself to finance such a large force. The other is the political issues, which one is considering.

Ted Koppel: Is there any sense of discomfort on your part as the leader of a Muslim nation sending troops over, ineffect, to control, for the time being, another Muslim nation?

General Musharraf: I would say it is a cause of concern, all right. That's why I said that we need to examine the modalities.The issue is not of controlling a Muslim state, but the issue is more the perception of the Muslim World, andwe need to see whether if it can get United Nations cover or the OIC cover or maybe the GCC cover, that iswhat we are looking for.

Ted Koppel: So, in other words, you wouldn't want to send the troops over as Pakistani troops per se, but as Pakistanitroops under a U.N. flag or a Gulf State flag?

General Musharraf: Yes. Additional countries participating. This is one area we are examining, as I said....?

Ted Koppel: As you look at how things have been going since the major combat in Iraq was over, give me your sense, bothas the leader of a great Muslim state and as a military man yourself. What are the, what are the problems,what do you think are the great problems that the United States and its allies face in, in Iraq?

General Musharraf: I feel the problem is of governance, a breakdown, total collapse of governance. Since Iraq was administeredthrough a strong dictatorial and autocratic regime, power is concentrated in one person. So, therefore, whenthat person leaves, there tends to be a total vacuum and a collapse of governance.

I feel the main problem is to establish some semblance of governance by the Iraqi people because governancecan't be done by any non-Iraqi, extensively. You can be in focal points, but the Iraqis themselves have togovern themselves. That is the only way of making it successful....?

The other issue is certainly political in that there are three major groups, the Shi'as in the South, and theKurds in the North — with implications on Iran, Syria, Turkey — and then Sunnis in the center. This isanother problem area where governance really will face some challenges.

Ted Koppel: When you talk to President Bush, do you get a sense of how long he thinks Paul Bremer, the administrator, isgoing to have to be the sole power in Iraq and how long it will be before the Iraqis are able to gatherthemselves in one fashion or another?

General Musharraf: Well, frankly, we didn't go into such details of the governance in Iraq.

Ted Koppel: But do you have a feeling as to what would be a safe period? In other words, how long do you think theUnited States can continue to control Iraq before it becomes a huge problem?

General Musharraf: Frankly, I'm a believer that one shouldn't lay time limits, even in Afghanistan. I always say we should beeffect-oriented and not time-oriented. What we need to ensure is that the people of Iraq govern themselves. Wemust ensure the integrity of Iraq, territorial integrity of Iraq. And having brought about a stablegovernment, only then should the forces leave. Otherwise one can end up in chaos there.

Ted Koppel: We just heard three senior U.S. senators who were in Baghdad over the weekend say very likely the UnitedStates will be there in force for the next three to five years. I know you don't want to put a time limit onit, but does that strike you as a dangerously long period of time?

General Musharraf: Well, I wouldn't, again, as I said, lay time limits, but certainly, at the moment, one is not seeingshort-term prospects of achieving whatever I said.

Ted Koppel: So you have no trouble with that three to five years. That sounds reasonable to you?

General Musharraf: Well, one has to counter any anti-forces which are opposed to whatever is happening, regrouping and creatingtrouble. I don't see that happening. If at all, we can, as soon as possible maybe hand over governance to thelocals in a manner that the feeling within the populace is that they, themselves, are governing themselves.

Ted Koppel: What do your intelligence people tell you, and what does your experience as a military man tell you, as yousee these almost daily clashes between Iraqis and the U.S. military? Do you have the sense that that isorganized or do you have the sense that these are just isolated incidents?

General Musharraf: Well, I wouldn't be able to accurately comment on that, frankly, but it is a cause of concern, all right,that these incidents are taking place. But then, having said that, one should have realized that, after all,where is the ex-Iraqi Army? Where is the Republican Guard of the troops which are supposed to be so loyal toPresident Saddam Hussein?

Ted Koppel: Do you think they're still out there? Do you think there is still a potential cause of problems?

General Musharraf: Maybe there are, yes. The Baath Party was the only party, supposedly, organized. The Republican wassupposedly extremely loyal. Of course, they have dissolved into the population, so there is a possibility thatthey could be undertaking some kind of isolated operation.

I don't believe that they are organized as such. I don't believe at all that they are under some commoncommand and control, and they are functioning in an organized manner. But stray incidents by groups ofindividuals is a possibility, yes.


Assessing Afghanistan

Ted Koppel: Mr. President, how are we doing in Afghanistan? I've heard, from various sources, that the United States isnot living up to all expectations over there. I'd be interested in your view.

General Musharraf: Well, I wouldn't be able to say that I'm very comfortable with whatever exactly is happening. A lot ishappening. I think a degree of stability is there, but —?

Ted Koppel: Throughout the country or just in Kabul?

General Musharraf: Yes. What I was saying was, the basic problem of extending the reach of the government over the wholecountry still remains to be fulfilled.

Ted Koppel: Why is that not happening sooner?

General Musharraf: Because there are a number of power centers in Afghanistan. One can divide Afghanistan into, to my judgment,about 11 or 12 power centers. These power centers are dominated by warlords, and they reign supreme there. So,at the moment, if force is not extended to these power centers, it is the warlords or elements which may beopposed to the Bonn peace process, or whatever the coalition is trying to do in Afghanistan. They reignsupreme.... Also, may I say, maybe external influence is possible in such a vacuum.

Ted Koppel: From where?

General Musharraf: From countries around —

Ted Koppel: Your own country?

General Musharraf: No, we are not at all interfering, and that is known by —?

Ted Koppel: I don't mean your government. I mean, for example, in the Northwest Province.

General Musharraf: Well, those are individuals who have sympathies maybe with the ex-Taliban government, but these are elementswhich are in the minority in the tribal belt, and we are operating against them.

Ted Koppel: This is the first time that the Pakistani military has moved into what you just referred to as "thetribal belt." How successful do you think the military has been? How successful do you think they can be?I mean, there's a reason that the military has never gone in there before. It's a very dangerous area.

General Musharraf: Yes. I think we have been extremely successful. I'm surprised at the success that we've achieved myself.?

I think the people of the area have realized that they are missing out on the advantages of living or beingintegrated into Pakistan, and we are drawing advantages from all of the progress that is possible. It isbecause of that, that when we approach the people and ask them for access into their area, they willinglyallowed us. It was the people of the area, the tribals themselves, who allowed that entry.

And when the army went in, we had decided that we were going to extensively get involved in developmentalactivity, like road construction, schools, and dispensaries. That is what exactly we are doing.

And the people who have really gone in — the forces anyway — they have gone in and they are received withopen arms, and we are helping them develop that area. Besides operating in that area and besides also gettingcooperation from them, generally, they have assured us that they will inform us of any outside presence intheir area.


Sharia Law: Al Qaeda Along the Afghan Border

Ted Koppel: I know the president complimented you today for having arrested over 500 members of the Taliban or al Qaeda,and yet there is a sense that this region is not really under Pakistani government control. For one thing,they just voted recently to institute Muslim law, Sharia. Is that a danger that that will spread throughoutPakistan? And, if so, what would it mean to the kind of government that you have?

General Musharraf: Yes. Well, this question is loaded.... When we are talking of the tribal area — now the possibility ofpeople going across the border from Afghanistan into our area and back to Afghanistan, utilizing the line ofcontrol for a safe haven, because of the inaccessible terrain — is there a possibility [of this]? Certainly.Unless we have access into the whole area, our operations against these miscreants, whether they are al Qaedaor Taliban, supporters of ex-Taliban government in al Qaeda, we cannot be assured with 100-percent success.

So, to that extent, yes, there is a degree of lack of control of the government, extending to the whole area.But we are, with every passing day ... bringing this area into control.

The other part of the question, when you are talking of the government — now that is a different issue. TheSharia bill that has been passed by the frontier government: let me tell you, with full guarantee and withfull confidence, that this will not affect the whole of Pakistan. It will not spread through the whole ofPakistan.

The Sharia bill which has been spoken of all around the world actually is quite innocuous. It is not violativeof whatever already is contained in the Constitution of Pakistan. This bill was verbatim passed in I think '93or '94 by the frontier government.... So, that is not really such an issue.

But in practical shape, what is happening there, the extremists acts of moving, placing restrictions ondresses, talking of removing billboards, destroying tapes of music, et cetera, now, that has nothing to dowith the Sharia bill they've introduced at all. These are other acts, over and above. This is what is causingconcern there....?

So, I am very sure that there is no question of it spreading anywhere other than here. In fact, the peoplethemselves of Frontier Province are alarmed.


Presidential Powers

Ted Koppel: You took over, Mr. President, in 1999, and there has been some expectation that at some point or another youwould give up one hat or the other — your military hat or your civilian hat as president. You have shown noinclination to do either. Why?

General Musharraf: Well, if you remember, I was wearing four hats, initially. When I took over, I was the chief of Army Staff,I was the chairman of Joint Chiefs of Staff Committee, I was the chief executive, and I was the president.

Now, I didn't take or wear these hats by choice. They were really the circumstances that put me in thesituation that I was wearing four hats. But then I realized that this is not correct. I started removing thehats. On the first opportunity, I gave up my position as chairman of Joint Chiefs of Staff Committee, andthen, in accordance with the Supreme Court orders, I gave up my third position as the chief executive.

And now there are two hats left. One is the Army chief and the other is the president. This, I have also said:I'm very conscious of the fact that these two should not be worn by one person. But in the interest ofstability, in the interest of security of Pakistan, since we are going through a state of transition at themoment, it is important that there is harmony between all institutions, especially the military and civil[government] in Pakistan. They're in a state of transition.

So, once I feel that the harmony is there, stability has come, political institutions have started functioningand they have been cemented, I would certainly like to take off this one hat that remains.

Ted Koppel: There have been suggestions, none by you, personally, publicly, but suggestions that you might even think ofdissolving the Parliament to undo what the most recent elections did. In other words, some of the Muslimparties did, I think, better than expected. Is that a possibility? Are you considering dissolving Parliament?

General Musharraf: No, not at all. We have to adopt democratic methods of handling the situation, political issues there. Weare facing a problem, but we have to take action, constitutional action, action in accordance to theConstitution. I'm certainly not thinking of any extra-constitutional measures.

Ted Koppel: In other words, dissolving Parliament would be, I just want to be sure I understand you correctly, thatwould be extra-constitutional.

General Musharraf: Dissolving the Parliament? Yes, it would be.

Ted Koppel: Is there something else you could do with the Parliament that falls short of dissolving it? The way youemphasize that word, I feel I have to follow up.

General Musharraf: No. As I said, one has to look for the constitutional methods of addressing this issue. One has to seewhether the people of the province themselves are in favor of this kind of governance, and if the support ofthe people of the area is not there, then one has to see what possibilities there are.

Ted Koppel: Would you call another election? Or how do you determine whether the people are for or against it? In otherwords, they voted for the Parliament, they voted for the Muslim members, the members of the Coalition ofMuslim Parties. Why do you question whether or not they're behind them?

General Musharraf: Well, one has to see whether they still have the confidence of the House. A possibility: there areconstitutional methods of seeing whether they enjoy the same degree of support in the House.

Ted Koppel: How would you do that?

General Musharraf: We are talking of the Frontier Province here, I suppose.

Ted Koppel: Exactly.

General Musharraf: I suppose, yes. Well, the Parliament itself has to — the provincial assembly itself has to judge that, andto see whether they are enjoying the same support.


Pakistan vs. India: U.S. as Mediator?

Ted Koppel: Are you satisfied that the United States is supportive of Pakistan...? I believe it's accurate to say thatyou have wanted Washington to become more involved in, for example, the Kashmiri dispute. Has President Bushgiven you any reason to believe that he will?

General Musharraf: Yes, he always says that he will remain committed to bringing peace and harmony between India and Pakistan.

Ted Koppel: But remaining committed is a different thing from becoming involved. For example, he has just becomeinvolved, for the first time, in the road map to peace in the Middle East. Would you like to see him becomeinvolved in a similar fashion in a dispute between India and Pakistan?

General Musharraf: Pakistan would certainly like that, because we are of the opinion that unless there is external influence,whether you call it mediation or facilitation, unfortunately the other side, the Indian side that talks ofbilateral resolution of everything — although they know that there is a deal of facilitation going on behindthe scenes — they don't want to talk about it. We believe in talking, whatever is really happening. SoPakistan would encourage it. We would certainly like to have his involvement.